Mathieu Jahnich is a consultant-researcher in responsible communication. In this podcast, he explains how the "marketing, communication and advertising" sector can serve the ecological transition.
Mathieu is a firm believer. He's convinced that marketing, communication and advertising have a role to play in getting society moving. Otherwise, he wouldn't be in this business.
He absolutely agrees that we need less advertising to consume less.
He believes in responsible advertising that breaks down lifestyle stereotypes. For him, advertising can change the way we perceive happiness, success and the image of a successful vacation.
He believes in responsible marketing, which breaks with traditional marketing techniques (promotion, incentives and over-solicitation).
He is a firm believer that communication, marketing and advertising are the real issues. a company's raison d'être How sustainable is the business model in terms of sustainability issues?
And he believes all this can work if an organization's raison d'être and values are aligned with communications and marketing techniques. " We won't be able to change marketing, advertising and communications if we don't change the global economic model in which we live and the economic model of companies." .
Enjoy your listening!
List of references cited during the podcast
- Mathieu Jahnich's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathieujahnich/
- MJ conseil website : https://mathieu-jahnich.fr/
- Réussir avec un Marketing responsable" website: https://reussir-avec-un-marketing-responsable.org/
- Asphalt : https://www.asphalte.com/f
- Episode with Rodolphe Gardies from Asphalte : https://shows.acast.com/sobriete-et-marketing/episodes/8-rodolphe-gardies-directeur-de-marque-co-createur-d-asphalt
- Loom : https://www.loom.fr/
- Commown : https://commown.coop/
- Episode with Marion Graeffly from Telecoop : https://www.badsender.com/2022/11/07/podcast-sobriete-marketing-marion-graeffly-telecoop/
This recording is available on all podcast platforms
Text transcript of the podcast recorded with Mathieu Jahnich from MJ Conseil
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Hi Mathieu.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Hi Marion.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Thank you for taking the time to record this podcast. I'm glad you did, because I've been chasing you for a few weeks now 😉 Can you start by saying who you are and what you're doing today, Mathieu?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, my name is Mathieu Jahnich, I'm a consultant-researcher in responsible communication and I'm the manager of MJ Conseil. We are a trio of experts who put communication at the service of the ecological transition.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
"Expert?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, two women, one man. The feminine wins.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What does consultant-researcher in responsible communication mean?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
In other words, I help public organizations and private companies to integrate sustainability issues into their communications and marketing practices, and also to use communications to support the deployment of their CSR strategy.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
You used the term "marketing communication". How do you define and perhaps differentiate (or not) the terms communication, marketing and advertising?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
For me, communication is really all about content production, whatever the medium. Every time we try to address our internal or external audiences. Marketing is more about defining the offer. It's true that, in general, marketing also includes communication actions. But as far as I'm concerned, when I talk to marketers, I'm talking to people who know their audiences and their needs very well, and who are capable of working with the R&D and Innovation teams to define the offer and then how it can be promoted. As for advertising, we're really in the business of direct or indirect media buying to address our audiences.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
So, communication is the message, the content of the message. Marketing is via which channel, and advertising is more the media side, posters, etc. Finally, marketing is more about positioning?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes. For me, marketing is all about the offer. In other words, marketers move the offer. They play on the company's offer. Whereas for me, in communications, we already have all that defined and we're there to work on the messages, but there are also supports. For example, for me, developing a website, animating a website or animating social networks, I put that in the communication label. That's why I call it the "communication, marketing and advertising" field. Basically, it's the sector at the interface between the company and its various audiences, whether through products, packaging, etc., or through all the communication tools it uses, including advertising. I work with communication departments, marketing departments, advertising teams and, of course, CSR teams.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Precisely, do the people who approach you in these companies tend to be from the CSR, marketing or communications departments?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
We really do have com teams, for example, who come and say, "I'm going to do this. We've been hearing a lot about responsible communication, but what does it actually mean? "We have marketing or advertising teams coming in and saying, " We also want to learn, we want to understand the risks of greenwashing and we want to train you, all our teams. ". And we have CSR teams coming in saying " We want to breathe new life into our strategies, or we have a new raison d'être, and so on. But it's hard to get everyone on board. How do you do it? "And, sometimes, it's all of the above at the same time. Because we have a big communication campaign on CSR commitments, or rather the environment. The idea is to discuss this campaign, its relevance and so on. So it's really, in a fairly varied way, profiles like marketing, CSR and also sometimes the IT department, purchasing, legal affairs. Yes, because they're also involved... An IT department with a responsible digital project has communication issues: " how do we communicate best practices to all internal teams, etc.?" . The purchasing team will ask itself: " how do we integrate CSR into more responsible purchasing?" . The legal team can be used to prevent greenwashing internally. We often work in tandem, with the legal department and the marketing and advertising departments. It affects quite a few different departments in companies.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
So, in responsible communication, it's as much about external as internal communication, after all?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, we tend to think Here, responsible communication is going to be in print, we're going to use certified paper, and so on. "But in fact, it's much more than that. We have both the message and the reduction of the negative externalities of our actions and tools. And then, of course, it's internal and external. Beyond that, communication must serve the transformation of the company, the transformation of society. With these terms, we have a whole range of subjects of interest to public players, private players, NGOs, freelancers, agencies, etc. We can touch on all the players in the world of communication. We can reach all players in the entire advertising, communications and marketing sector.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Could you sum up what's been going on in the regulatory arena over the last few months, in terms of communication? What can a company no longer do in the last few months or weeks?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
And it's not supposed to be able to do that any more, because then there's the question of enforcement. As of January 1, 2023, the use of the " carbon neutrality "In other words, companies can no longer claim that a product or service is carbon-neutral. So, normally, companies can no longer say that a product or service is carbon neutral, unless they post a detailed greenhouse gas balance sheet over the widest perimeter, if they communicate a trajectory for reducing their emissions and if they are transparent about carbon offsetting projects and, in particular, tell us how much it cost them. Because, in fact, there are different levels of offset projects. There are offset projects that are very comprehensive and very positive in terms of sustainable development in general, and local populations in particular. And there are offsetting projects that cost very little and are industrial monoculture projects that store a little carbon, but also do a lot of harm in other ways. Companies have been supposed to do all this since January 1, and we're finding that they haven't. We're going to see whether the French Ministry of the Environment is going to take this into account. We'll see if the Ministry of Ecological Transition, the DGCCRF (Direction Générale de la Concurrence, de la Consommation et de la Répression des Fraudes) of the Ministry of the Economy and NGOs file more complaints. It does send out a signal that these issues are starting to become part of the law, and that it's not just about morals and ethics. That's one of the positive changes brought about by the Climate and Resilience Act, but also by the AGEC Act (Anti-Gaspillage pour une Économie Circulaire), where certain environmental claims are now a little more strictly regulated. A similar movement is underway in Europe. Soon, we'll have a new directive to protect consumers' rights, and that's helping to tell companies, "You've got to be careful! Be careful, you can't talk nonsense. "The law is moving and there's more and more pressure on social networks. We feel that things are moving towards more regulation. It's not going fast enough for my taste, but it's moving in the right direction.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Do you denounce ads when you see them?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, I try to do that when I have the time and when I see it. It's part of my civic commitment to report non-compliant advertising to the Jury Déontologie Publicitaire. We have a self-regulatory system in France that has a number of limitations, but it has the merit of existing. That's why I try to report these ads. It allows us to have practical cases where the complainant explains why the ad poses a problem from his or her point of view. We have the advertiser, the agency, the media, the broadcasters and the ARPP (Autorité de Régulation Professionnelle de la Publicité) who also give their point of view, and then we have the jury who give their opinion: compliant or non-compliant advertising. This allows us to get away from a purely individual assessment and take a more collective look at these issues. It shows that there are still a huge number of companies that don't know the ethical rules, that don't understand the issues associated with greenwashing. Many of us think that these issues need to be much more strictly regulated.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Do you really think advertising can have a positive impact?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, I'm convinced of it. If I work in this sector today, it's because I'm convinced that we need advertising, communications and marketing to make society move faster.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I asked you this question because for me, the real problem is the company's business model. If the business model doesn't change, advertising can't change?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes. There are several things. I think the first thing is that we need less advertising. We need to reduce exposure to advertising. If we want the French to consume less, we have to make them less inclined to buy things they don't need. So we need less advertising. And then we need advertising for products and services that are more responsible, by working on lifestyle stereotypes. In other words, advertising can change the way we perceive happiness, success and the image of a successful vacation. Does it have to be on the other side of the world, in the sun, in the tropics? Or can it be close to home? Changing the image of travel, mobility and the individual car. When we start looking into these issues, of course, we come to "...". But in fact, companies, their business model, is not compatible. "That's what I'm passionate about today. That's to say, by looking at the issues of communication, marketing and advertising, we're questioning the real raison d'être of companies. What are you there for? Why are you there? Of course, you create jobs, OK. But beyond that, how sustainable is your business model in relation to sustainability issues? What do you offer? What do you bring to society? What do you bring to people? We won't be able to change marketing, advertising and communications if we don't change the global economic model in which we live and the economic model of companies.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
How do today's companies react to this? When you question them and say We need new stories, but you don't have anything to tell. You're not ready yet."
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
So, the companies that come to us, they're pretty committed, they have things to say. In other words, they're doing things, they're trying to transform themselves, they've understood that there are issues at stake, and they're stumbling because they say to themselves: "I'm not going to do it! Gee, how do I promote what I've done without greenwashing like my competitors? How do I get everyone on board? How do I manage to adopt a humble and sincere posture to make people understand that I'm transforming myself and that the transformation isn't going to happen overnight, and that for that to happen, I need to maintain trust and I need customers to continue buying our products in order to encourage us to change. "So today, the companies that come to see us are in the process of changing and want to accelerate. But they're still in the minority. We still have a lot of companies who have realized that things are happening, and they feel that by changing their narrative, by re-storytelling, by saying "I'm going to change, I'm going to change! Yes, look, we've incorporated recycled plastic from waste collected in the oceans, and that's it, we can continue to sell you more and more clothes, explaining that by buying the garment, you'll be protecting the oceans. "The problem is that they've understood the surface, but they haven't understood the reality of what's at stake and the difficulties we're going to find ourselves in very quickly.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Do you provide support up to the point of changing the business model, i.e. changing the marketing positioning?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
We ask the questions, raise the issues, and then it's up to the brands to do their job. In other words, very often, it's " We'd like to say this, or we've planned to say that. "And we tell them" Wait a minute, if you're going to say it like that, we need evidence like that. Or else, as long as you're doing this, you won't be credible. So change that first before you communicate on it. "And often, it's talking about certain subjects that are going to require maturation, reflection and a profound transformation of the company. But let's just say that we're also here to tackle all these issues. In civil society, we have people who are very committed, even activists. It's the same in the corporate world, especially in large groups. In large groups today, we have employees who are very sensitive, very committed, even radical. And how do we talk to these people? How do you open up the floor? How do we discuss things? How do we make them understand that we're trying to transform ourselves? So there's a lot of internal dialogue and listening. And that's responsible communication. It means talking internally about the future of the company, what it's for, what it brings to society. And, in concrete terms, how this will require transformation. We need to do that internally. But these are subjects we don't necessarily get involved in. But in any case, at some point, when someone comes to us and says " We have planned such an advertising campaign "and we tell them Careful, now, if you say that, you're going to get lined up. And there's no rephrasing possible because it's not consistent with your business model and what you're saying isn't credible." So sometimes, they leave with their luggage and say, "I'm going to have to go back. Indeed, it's a little too early. "But, are they able to transform themselves or not? Will they? At what pace? That's another subject. But what's quite appreciable is that people come to us and often say, "I'm going to do it! Just tell us what you think. "That means there's the " Go to "I've had it several times. It's " Don't go easy on us. That's not why we're here. We're here to hear how our messages might be received."
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
So they want to be pushed around.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, sometimes it stings a little. But that's the principle.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
You need to raise people's awareness.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, it's interesting because we're playing our part. Companies are sometimes large groups that already have their own agencies, which are sometimes committed. But we bring a much sharper eye and perhaps a greater vision of what's at stake. And that allows us to say certain things that an agency wouldn't be able to say. After all, an agency has to maintain a relationship with the customer over the longer term. We, on the other hand, intervene on an ad hoc basis. So we can say things and put our foot down. What's interesting is when companies say to us right from the start: "What's the point? Go on, that's what we're here for... ".
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It's true that what's complicated for an agency, and that's the case for us at Badsender, is that our primary role is to support the sending of emailing.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
If we take emailing as an example, you could say to a customer " No, but there's too much content here. " or " Really, are you sure you want to push this message? "But then, it's your customer, so you have to do it right. Whereas we, being the interface between your customer and his team, we can say " Really, for next time, think about doing this or that ". It's more comfortable for you, for us, because we stay in our position, and for the customer, because he can hear. I find this triangle game quite relevant, because it allows everyone to keep their place and tackle head-on issues without jeopardizing the customer/provider relationship.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
When a company has to change its business model, it may have to raise its prices. Citizens have become promo addicts. As a result, companies have also become promo addicts. They run promotional campaigns all the time. And, sometimes, I'm confronted with people who tell me " Yes, but we've always done promos and I don't know what else we can say. "They're aware of the problem, but they're lost, they don't know what to say. How can we fight against this?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
There are two things. First, there's the received wisdom, which is sometimes borne out, that a more responsible product or service is necessarily more expensive. This raises questions. Because it means that a whole section of the population will be left out of the equation, and will never be able to buy organic or certified products, or products made in France, and so on. This really raises the question of companies' ability to transform their offer without necessarily raising prices. In addition, we need a government policy to help and support the most vulnerable. We've seen cases where companies have been able to transform their offerings for the better, without necessarily raising prices. Because what you can pay more for on the one hand, you can reduce on the other. There are examples. Then, your second question is about this addiction to promotions. And yes, in general, promotions are used to trigger a purchase that wasn't thought of or wasn't desired. They're there to trigger the impulse to buy. That's not to say that there aren't people who wait for the sales to buy the product they need. But for most people, and I can see it clearly when I receive a promotional email, there's that "I'm waiting for the sale" aspect to it. It's a great opportunity "that encourages us. Afterwards, we say to ourselves " But do I really need it? ". And then, once the promotion's over, you're no worse off for not having bought anything. There's a real incentive to over-consume in most cases. So, a more responsible business model should be able to exist without that. In other words, we need a business model that is no longer based on selling products or services in volume: always more volume, always cheaper. But a business model that is solid enough to sell less, but better. Perhaps people will buy fewer products and services, but will be willing to pay a little more. That's where we can also solve the equation. Right now, we're in an inflationary phase, so it's complicated. But if I say to myself I buy fewer clothes, but I put a little more money into them because I'm sure the product is of better quality and made in better conditions, possibly in France. ". I think it's a win-win situation.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
That's the problem. At the end of the day, to think like that and act like you've just said, you need a certain amount of cash.
Need help?
Reading content isn't everything. The best way is to talk to us.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
It requires a shift in sales, it requires a shift in business, and that's complicated. That's on the sales side. And then there's the question of moving on to other models, i.e. renting, moving towards more circularity, etc. Indeed, we're seeing some major companies starting to change their business model. Decathlon, for example, has introduced rental in Belgium. Depending on the subscription, you can rent up to so many objects, sports articles, each month, etc. And financially, this model is very attractive. And financially, this model is much more profitable. But we need to transform everything. We need to transform the way we design products, so that they are even more robust, repairable and so on. We need to change our communication methods. We also need to change our consumer reflexes to encourage people to take products back. This means finding a place to collect them, recondition them, etc. It's a complete transformation. It's a complete transformation of the way they run their business. And that takes time. And it can't be done at the expense of the company's economic sustainability. Otherwise, you put people out of work, and so on. That's why we need to make the switch. Just like us, we have to make a switch at an individual level, moving towards a less meat-based diet, moving towards more sober travel, and so on. The company has to do this too. And therein lies the challenge of marketing tools.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes. The changeover that we're making internally, by creating new offers, we need to be able to get our customers on board at the same time. That's where we need marketing and communications.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
That's right, but these marketing techniques need to be renewed too. Because it doesn't make sense to sell an offer that's more responsible, whether it's because we've eco-designed the product or service, or because we're moving towards more rental or second-hand services, using traditional marketing techniques. If you bombard the public with promotional emails, it's not going to work. Because then, people think " Wait, it's offering me something that's supposed to be more responsible but they keep encouraging me to buy more and more and bombarding me with messages. "So we have to reinvent our marketing techniques too.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It's interesting what you say. That is to say, marketing techniques such as, for example, the well-known " shopping cart abandonment" doesn't make sense if you're in the process of transforming your model. There would be an inconsistency between the message you're putting across and the model you're transforming.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Clearly. When you look at a brand like Fnac-Darty, which is making efforts to increase the number of refurbished products. Their efforts have been recognized by the "Réussir avec un Marketing plus Responsable" platform. So it's an approach that's recognized by industry professionals as innovative, promising and successful. But on the other hand, we're still getting promotional emails from Darty saying " -40% for a week or for three days, go ahead, there are only a few rooms. ". Clearly, the company still has two sides. A more responsible side, where there's an awareness of the issues and a desire to change things and transform ourselves. And on the other side, there's still the traditional, historic business model, which continues to use conventional tools. This is normal, but it raises questions.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It's a question of trajectory. There has to be a downward trajectory for everything promotional and an upward trajectory for editorial.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, they have to intersect, and it's this switchover that's complicated for companies. If you go too fast, you run the risk of jeopardizing your financial equilibrium, and the company could close. And if you do it too slowly, you won't be contributing to the transition at the pace the challenges demand.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
What's more, double-talk can be akin to greenwashing, when in fact it may be sincere.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
That's it. In other words, we understand the paradox and the difficulty of transforming a company of this size.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
In your opinion, is it possible for a brand to do both an informative, educational email and a promotional email, and then switch back to pedagogy?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
I feel that we should be able to include in the same newsletter, not necessarily promotion in the " -30%" It's more about promoting the products and services on offer. But at the same time, you need to have a pedagogical attitude and approach, and even an openness to other people, partners and so on. In other words, in a newsletter, you shouldn't just have incentives to buy, but also information about the process, the difficulties encountered. And why not broader content on the issues or environment in which the company operates.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I always tend to say, "Be transparent. Say that you certainly need to sell your products to insure the hundreds or thousands of employees, but only buy if you extremely need to, if it's an essential need." But isn't being so transparent dangerous for the company?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
I think the main risk is not being credible. In other words, there are very few brands today that can say "I'm not a brand". Don't buy our products "or " Buy our products only if you need them. "It's a real subject, and you need to know your consumers very well to know exactly how you can move forward and change with them. It's really not easy.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
The companies we've interviewed so far in this podcast all have one thing in common: they listen to their customers and ask them about their needs. Some go so far as to ask " Let's create a sweater. What's your ideal sweater? ? " What's great about this practice is that the production brief is done by the contacts. I don't know what I was getting at when I said that...
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
But it's also the basis for listening to dialogue with stakeholders in the broadest sense of the term, and especially with consumers.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, that's it. That's what I wanted to say. It's that, when you have a business model that, historically, says " Our strength is our low prices. "How do you do it? In the fashion sector, there are a lot of mid-range brands that are falling by the wayside, like Kookaï, San Marina and so on. Whereas Shein and Primark are doing quite well. And then there are the virtuous new brands like Asphalt, Loometc, which are on the rise. I feel we're creating a social divide.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Of course, the cost of living is rising. When you go shopping, you can see that everything is going up. So, of course, it's more difficult. Now, we also have families who are able to invest in a telephone subscription or in appliances that can be expensive. It's just that there's a postponement. We're going to spend less on food and keep more on leisure activities, if there are any left. I think there are 30% families who do their shopping to the nearest €10. You have to put that into perspective, of course. This is also where advertising has a responsibility, and communication and marketing in the broadest sense. In the stereotyping of clothes, in fact. The fact that when you go to school or to work, you're afraid you'll look bad if you wear the same clothes for three days in a row. You have to change all the time. Clothes don't get dirty unless you drop something on them, but in general, they don't get dirty. I'm not talking about underwear, but in any case, a sweater or a pair of jeans can be worn for three or four days without any problem. So if we manage to change social norms, we'll have less need to buy lots of clothes. Here too, brands have a job to do to ensure that clothes last longer. And then there's a particular issue for children, because they're growing up. So we need to change clothes regularly. That's why rental offers could be interesting. After that, I'm quite in favor of a kind of free access to a whole range of essential goods. Water, energy, transport and why not clothes and of course daily hygiene products, for women, menstrual protection and so on. A whole range of everyday essentials paid for by the community. This would make it possible to say "Ihere's the basic clothing package, where you get vouchers to buy clothes. And then you can go more comfortably. "But it's true that there's the practical side of buying several clothes for relatively little money and dressing your kid. It's very, very practical. And that's part of one of today's paradoxes. We all want to do better, preserve the environment and have less impact on living things in general. But we also have our daily lives and habits.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes. Sometimes you get caught up in your daily routine. You say to yourself " Boy, do I need this for tomorrow. "If you're renting, you have to plan ahead, take more steps and spend more time.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
It's the whole system that needs to evolve. Especially when you have to repair a product that doesn't work. If I don't have a repairer nearby, it's so much easier to go to a store, drop off the product, then buy a new one. And then sometimes, the shopkeeper tells us: " But why are you trying to repair this product? Buy a new one, it'll cost you less and you'll have it right away. "We're in a system that doesn't encourage sobriety in the broadest sense. And in this system, we have advertising, marketing and communication, whose primary mission is to make us want to buy, to simplify everything for us and to shape social representations, social norms, etc., in a way that makes us want to buy.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
In any case, what's interesting in what you say is that there are certain beliefs to be broken and other messages to be communicated. As a result, there's a certain strength in the marketing and communications department within a company that can have a great deal of influence on management and, consequently, on the business model, the change of model. I find this extremely interesting, because often, the reputation of communications or marketing is very poor. And it's great to think that you can use it to pull the whole thing up.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
In fact, the challenges of sustainability and the development of more responsible marketing, communications and advertising are giving these functions a more strategic role in the company. And it's also giving meaning back to the people who work in these functions. Because there's already a need to explain internally, and to senior management in particular, what's going on in terms of the transformation of our society, in particular because of the major ecological challenges, and to explain the expectations of civil society and of the brand's consumers in particular. That's the role of marketing and communications.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Is it possible to be a marketing or communications director today, without climate skills?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
No, and not just climate. Because today, in fact, we're seeing a particular sensitivity to climate issues, and that's very important. But it's not just about decarbonizing an industrial company. There are issues of biodiversity, health and pollution, raw materials extraction, fuel poverty, food insecurity and mobility. There are issues of social justice. So we need to keep all these issues in mind. Because if we have a transformation policy based solely on a carbon indicator, we're going to have pollution records and we're going to fail. So, yes, you need skills in ecological issues in the broadest sense, so that you can then integrate and discuss them, if only internally, and integrate them into the company's business model.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Some marketing managers are old-fashioned and don't have this in mind at all. And there are others who self-train, because they have an awareness or experienced a trigger earlier than the director. It can also come from a more radical person in the company. So those who are radical shouldn't be afraid to express themselves in a company that isn't radical.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, but the company has to give them the opportunity to express themselves. I'd like to qualify that, for me, it's not a generational issue. We have company bosses who are old and very aware of the issues, and who are moving their company and their ecosystem forward. Conversely, we have young people setting up companies based on models from the past. And in civil society, as in all employees of all ages and social categories. We have people who are skeptical or who don't care, and others who are sensitive, even committed, even activist, whatever their age or socio-professional category. Yes, I think that one of the challenges for companies today is to open up dialogue on these issues. Because when you're in a company, whatever it may be, but it's based on a model from the past, which isn't compatible with the issues at stake, there are bound to be people who receive criticism, and people who ask questions and wonder. And at some point, opening up the dialogue, being clear about the strategy and the stakes, should make it possible to keep these people and perhaps attract new ones.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Following the various episodes we've recorded, there are companies that have a perfect alignment between their convictions, their com and their marketing. Some say to themselves " I'm so aware, I have so many convictions that I don't want to give money to GAFAM. "They're more likely to believe in the power of words and visuals, and so on. And others, are still torn by current marketing techniques: sponsoring, social networking campaigns, a newsletter every 2 days. Every 2 days, they'll talk about how their products are more virtuous than the competition because they're better made. But can we still surf on the old marketing techniques even if our model is more virtuous?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, this is indeed a concern. We also have companies who are very committed, and who are convinced that their products save the planet, and who say it almost like that. In fact, for those companies that have built their entire model around sourcing, processes and localization to be as low-impact as possible, they tend to apply old-world marketing, communication and advertising techniques. Because that's also what works. There's a challenge here. How can we be effective while at the same time using more responsible communication or sales techniques? That also means being aware of what's at stake. This brings us back to the question of training. When we understand that these big platforms are super efficient, it's also because they're ultra-dominant and they plunder and exploit our data. When you use them, you're endorsing the system. At some point, you have to ask yourself the question. Can I do things differently? "There are boxes that will say " No, because it's the only way I've found to develop. "But in any case, you have to ask yourself these questions. And there are plenty of companies that don't want to look at these issues. Because it's so easy, and gets so many results.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
They're convinced it's the only way to federate a community easily.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
This raises the question of the pace of development: how fast do we want to grow? Do we absolutely want to grow very fast, or do we take our time? Studies show that more than 80% of companies could disappear without people caring. So the question of communities, I'm not sure they'll last over time if it's a community that's been built on promotional emails. So there's the question of which community I'm building, and am I taking the time to build it and have real relationships and a real listening ear? We may see companies saying " Yes, indeed, I'm still using 80% of my advertising spend on GAFAM. And I'm using 20% on a small local community" or "I'm trying to invest 20% ". Once again, it's a question of trajectory. I'm dropping very slowly, but I'm keeping up. Are they committed to this trajectory? I don't think many are. Because they stop at their processes, their products, their services and they haven't thought about the very responsibility of their marketing, communication and advertising activities. So they take what's there, what they've been told works. Today, the challenge is to question that too. In terms of consistency, a brand that wants to be committed can't do what all the other brands do and bombard us with messages. It has to think differently.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Are you a teacher?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, I teach.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I teach too. I'm still teaching the email channel at business schools, and I try to talk about it very frankly. What are their reactions when you talk to them about it? Are they anxious? Are they in denial? Are they fatalistic? I think they're fatalistic. Most of the students I meet are work-study students who already have one foot in the company. And they tell me " Anyway, we're screwed, Madame... "
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
I have an optional module at Sciences Po and I have people who come from Master Marketing and Master Communication. They choose my more responsible marketing and communications module. So they're convinced. On the other hand, they're also on a work-study program, and it's true that they tell me " I do my work-study here and then I go elsewhere. "Because it's bullshit, because the model doesn't change. There are a lot of questions about " But can we really have more responsible marketing and communication? "And we see the power of the dominant economic model, of the system we're in. I feel that it's complicated for her and for them to say " Here, I'll make sense. "There are quite a few who say 'JI'll go into the public sector or I'll go into NGOs ". Then there's the question of " Can we move the system from within? "I think there are a few who are going to stay with their company because they say to themselves, 'I don't want to leave. That's where I'm going to be most useful. ". But I don't sense any defeatism, perhaps because it's a special audience.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
When they ask you where they should work, do you have an answer or not?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
No, but here I'm explaining the advantages and disadvantages. You can be in an NGO and make sense, but have horrible management, because that happens too. You can be in a company that sells yoghurt pots, but is trying to transform itself, and that can also be very interesting. You can be in an agency, and there are agencies with different levels of commitment, etc. So you can do your bit. So, you can do your bit. You can be in an administration, in a local authority. I tell them " But make the most of it! Experiment, make phone calls and find out what it's like to work for people in companies or organizations that interest you."
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I've even had students say to me, "I don't know what you're talking about. I want to leave this business school because I don't see myself in it anymore. But my parents don't want me to, they want me to go all the way." There's a certain amount of pressure from parents because they've sometimes invested a few thousand euros in this business school.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Of course it's complicated. You have to be able to let go of that pressure, and that will certainly come with time. But it's not easy. There's an urgent need to transform society, and most companies are lagging behind.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
I've got one last question Mathieu, and then I'll let you get on with your business. Are there any companies that inspire you in the way they communicate, or that have really succeeded in making the switch?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes, in the fashion sector. We talked about it before the recording, the company Loomwhich I find very inspiring both in terms of its business model and its militant stance on transforming the fashion sector, and which is also reflected in its communications, particularly its newsletters. I love it when they tell their story, the difficulties they face, how they're trying to improve, and so on. I find that really inspiring. It's also possible because it's a small structure that's growing.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, but why "the little ones"? Does it always come down to the same thing?
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
They'll certainly grow, but they'll never be a fashion behemoth. That's not what they're about. But in any case, we can have a relationship. It helps us to mature these questions, about our relationship with clothes, and also to better understand the difficulties a company can encounter.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Yes, and I also think it helps us to realize that you can act on your own scale by creating your own company. But there comes a point when your impact is limited in size. And if you want to change things profoundly, it's through systemic change. And what's interesting, I think, is that these companies are going to take their time to try and change the laws. Even though they're small, and have to monitor their cash flow, I imagine, on a month-to-month basis, it's not easy. But they're so convinced that they're going to volunteer their time to try and change laws by setting up associations. They go all the way.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Yes. And there's another model I like, which is the cooperative. It's another different business model. It's the cooperative Commown which offers hardware and telephone rentals. And on the smartphone side, you can rent a fairphone. On their site, next to the " Rent "there's a button Do I need it? ". I did the experiment because I was ready to take out a subscription and I clicked on " Do I need it? ". And indeed, my phone still works. It's old, but it still works. As long as it's working, I don't need to rent it, even though renting is great and even though a fairphone is much better than other phones. It goes back to the question you asked earlier about companies offering first services that were better. But here's one that adopts better services but doesn't adopt classic sales techniques and tells you " Take your time. That's it, you've spotted us. The day you need us, you'll come and find us. ".
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
It's funny because I interviewed Marion Graeffly from Telecoop who also recommended Commown. I'll go and ring their doorbell then. Thanks a lot Mathieu.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
Thank you Marion.
Marion Duchatelet - Badsender
Once again, thank you for your precious time. See you soon.
Mathieu Jahnich - MJ conseil
See you soon. See you soon.
